Mislabeled Custom or D production?

Discussion about the identification of Kramer Guitars and Kramer history
Twebby
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Re: Mislabeled Custom or D production?

Post by Twebby » Mon Oct 30, 2023 3:21 pm

Kramers wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 5:54 pm Sounds like both are Canadian, oui? (French Canadian)
How can you tell, ive definitely wondered? My understanding according to the vintagekramer website is the non-scarfs were ESP? and as for bodies I have no clue how you would tell lol.
you know more than me though! shrug

antonn
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Re: Mislabeled Custom or D production?

Post by antonn » Mon Oct 30, 2023 4:13 pm

Twebby wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 3:19 pm Now that you point it out I do see definite but careful sanding marks.
And i know some of those old black plates wore terribly. So you're saying this was originally probably a worn out rusted back D plate and it got sanded down to be what it is now?
I think that sounds a lot more believable and reasonable than someone getting a random knockoff plate made given the body and neck are legit and time period correct

Yes, mine looks like hell but I kinda like it!
And the date stamp is a giveaway of lasido if i remember correctly

Image

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80sChris
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Re: Mislabeled Custom or D production?

Post by 80sChris » Mon Oct 30, 2023 4:31 pm

Twebby wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 3:21 pm
Kramers wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 5:54 pm Sounds like both are Canadian, oui? (French Canadian)
How can you tell, ive definitely wondered? My understanding according to the vintagekramer website is the non-scarfs were ESP? and as for bodies I have no clue how you would tell lol.
you know more than me though! shrug
Non-tilts we're ESP, it's less clear with tilt back bananas which were Sports and which were Lasido. The ESP tilt nanas were the trannies ( glue up headstock and usually a skunk stripe) plus the three piece Mick Mars necks. The other tell with Nana's is the spray stick tan line and date stamp on the Lasido necks like on this one:

viewtopic.php?p=104799&hilit=Lasido#p104799

Twebby
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Re: Mislabeled Custom or D production?

Post by Twebby » Mon Oct 30, 2023 4:47 pm

antonn wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 4:13 pm
Twebby wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 3:19 pm Now that you point it out I do see definite but careful sanding marks.
And i know some of those old black plates wore terribly. So you're saying this was originally probably a worn out rusted back D plate and it got sanded down to be what it is now?
I think that sounds a lot more believable and reasonable than someone getting a random knockoff plate made given the body and neck are legit and time period correct

Yes, mine looks like hell but I kinda like it!
And the date stamp is a giveaway of lasido if i remember correctly

Image
Ah, with this picture and your previous mention of the sanding swirls I am now a pretty firm believer that you may have cracked the code on this one. Thank you sir!

I was going to say I thought lasido had their date stamps in french but after verifying; the acronym in both english and french would still be OCT so it goes both ways I guess.

Twebby
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Re: Mislabeled Custom or D production?

Post by Twebby » Mon Oct 30, 2023 4:59 pm

80sChris wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 4:31 pm
Twebby wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 3:21 pm
Kramers wrote: Thu Oct 26, 2023 5:54 pm Sounds like both are Canadian, oui? (French Canadian)
How can you tell, ive definitely wondered? My understanding according to the vintagekramer website is the non-scarfs were ESP? and as for bodies I have no clue how you would tell lol.
you know more than me though! shrug
Non-tilts we're ESP, it's less clear with tilt back bananas which were Sports and which were Lasido. The ESP tilt nanas were the trannies ( glue up headstock and usually a skunk stripe) plus the three piece Mick Mars necks. The other tell with Nana's is the spray stick tan line and date stamp on the Lasido necks like on this one:

viewtopic.php?p=104799&hilit=Lasido#p104799
So this one is OCT 10 1985 which could be french or english October vs Octobre
There is no paint stick lines on the neck heel
The neck looks to be one piece while the headstock has a clear line that indiciates 2 pieces towards the point

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Kramers
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Re: Mislabeled Custom or D production?

Post by Kramers » Mon Oct 30, 2023 6:37 pm

Twebby wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 4:59 pmSo this one is OCT 10 1985 which could be french or english October vs Octobre
There is no paint stick lines on the neck heel
The neck looks to be one piece while the headstock has a clear line that indiciates 2 pieces towards the point
I'm definitely no expert, but my SEP stamped one does have the brown "binding" line around the headstock. It is also the same construction as yours, appears one piece with 2 wings to make the headstock, and without an abrupt volute. Fwiw.

shrug
7-Pointies, 4-Bananas of sorts, 2-Hockey Sticks, 1-Open Book(?)

Twebby
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Re: Mislabeled Custom or D production?

Post by Twebby » Tue Oct 31, 2023 7:14 pm

Kramers wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 6:37 pm
Twebby wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 4:59 pmSo this one is OCT 10 1985 which could be french or english October vs Octobre
There is no paint stick lines on the neck heel
The neck looks to be one piece while the headstock has a clear line that indiciates 2 pieces towards the point
I'm definitely no expert, but my SEP stamped one does have the brown "binding" line around the headstock. It is also the same construction as yours, appears one piece with 2 wings to make the headstock, and without an abrupt volute. Fwiw.

shrug
And whats the Origin of yours, for reference?

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Kramers
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Re: Mislabeled Custom or D production?

Post by Kramers » Tue Oct 31, 2023 10:20 pm

Twebby wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2023 7:14 pm
Kramers wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 6:37 pm
Twebby wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 4:59 pmSo this one is OCT 10 1985 which could be french or english October vs Octobre
There is no paint stick lines on the neck heel
The neck looks to be one piece while the headstock has a clear line that indiciates 2 pieces towards the point
I'm definitely no expert, but my SEP stamped one does have the brown "binding" line around the headstock. It is also the same construction as yours, appears one piece with 2 wings to make the headstock, and without an abrupt volute. Fwiw.

shrug
And whats the Origin of yours, for reference?
I'm presuming Lasido because it seems to be built like Takemeback's new Lasido which was made only a month earlier.

shrug
7-Pointies, 4-Bananas of sorts, 2-Hockey Sticks, 1-Open Book(?)

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Dirty D
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Re: Mislabeled Custom or D production?

Post by Dirty D » Wed Nov 01, 2023 12:29 am

Hey look, I don't really have time or interest to argue about something trivial like this, but that silver plate shown in the first photo clearly is not an authentic Kramer neck plate. As I mentioned before, you can easily see the laser etching marks on the "8" where the line crossed back over itself, and a stamp would not do that. The "Kramer" etching lines are too thick compared to an authentic stamped plate, and the groove is squared-off in a manner that a stamp could not do, also too precise. The shape of the "0" is obviously different compared to the "0" on the authentic rusty black plate. Also the "9" and the "0" are too close together and would have been impossible with a stamped plate. And there was no black paint "sanded off" because it would be impossible to get all of the paint out of the letter and number grooves without leaving behind some residual trace of paint and/or solvent.

I don't know why somebody would go to the trouble to make a replica plate and leave it all scuffed up like that, as it would be super easy to polish it out as shiny as one wanted, but I'm telling you that D 0908 plate is not authentic. I've got a stack of them here in both black and chrome, and that one shown in the photo is something from a different source and created using a different method.

I'm not knocking the guitar at all - it's super cool, but If you want to play detective and try to figure out the true origin story of the guitar, then you can't ignore multiple data points aka "clues" that are very obvious to the naked eye demonstrating that the silver neck plate is a replica.
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antonn
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Re: Mislabeled Custom or D production?

Post by antonn » Wed Nov 01, 2023 5:08 am

Dirty D wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2023 12:29 am As I mentioned before, you can easily see the laser etching marks on the "8" where the line crossed back over itself, and a stamp would not do that. The "Kramer" etching lines are too thick compared to an authentic stamped plate, and the groove is squared-off in a manner that a stamp could not do, also too precise. The shape of the "0" is obviously different compared to the "0" on the authentic rusty black plate. Also the "9" and the "0" are too close together and would have been impossible with a stamped plate. And there was no black paint "sanded off" because it would be impossible to get all of the paint out of the letter and number grooves without leaving behind some residual trace of paint and/or solvent.
I missed out on these details but I totally agree, no stamp would make that figure 8 like it was cut out from butter.
Have to say that whoever did it put some attention to it, I haven't seen a knock-off this good but I didn't even think there was a issue with these kind of stuff on Kramers.. Sad to see really.

Since I'm in need of a C or D plate in the near future I will certainly look more closely after realizing that this is a problem - Thanks!

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