Possible early 5150 Production

Discussion about the identification of Kramer Guitars and Kramer history
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menace
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Re: Possible early 5150 Production

Post by menace » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:31 pm

darrend wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:55 pm You have to really careful when it comes to ESP Frankenstrat clones in Japan, but they do exist. Navigator (ESP) were usually the culprits of these. They did many "off record" guitars, and to be honest, the Japanese didn't really give a shit when it came to trademarks, etc. When they made this guitar, EVH was heading out and Kramer was collapsing. They copied whatever they wanted and sold them domestically as "store models" and other variants. Sometimes the stores did their own modifications. This was very common with many Japanese brands.

Here is a Navigator VH-230 from a May '83 catalog, already digging their fingers into it.

Image

The guitar the OP has is one made sometime between '89 to the early 1990s, during and post Kramer collapse. Yes, they exist, but there are still many fakes to be aware of. I have a "store model" ESP frankenstrat photo somewhere. I have to find it. It's not in any ESP catalog. Many artist clones weren't (Navigator Brad Gillis, N4, etc.). I'm really not surprised if it's from the ESP Navigator division.

And yet the neck in the OP looks NOTHING like what you posted above. :bs

Image
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darrend
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Re: Possible early 5150 Production

Post by darrend » Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:46 pm

They aren't the same. The one I posted was from '83. The one the OP has is some variant probably from the 90s. What I was trying to convey is that Japanese companies made striped guitars behind the scenes, and it was common to release them domestically in Japan.

'82/'83 is when EVH was cracking down on the Japanese copies. Tokai, Fernandes, and ESP/Navigator were already releasing Bumblebee and Frankenstrat copies by then in catalogs. You won't see any striped Japanese EVH clones in catalogs after '83, but they were still making them for stores in Osaka and Tokyo.

I don't believe everything Johnny says is true. I think there are half-truths to these guitars to make them more important than what they are. That being said, I don't think we can write them off quite yet. More information is needed, and it won't be easy finding it.

Edit: I'm mainly talking about all EVH Japanese replicas in general, not necessarily the 5150 version the OP has. I've seen a few other ESP style guitars that OPs had, but not with the 5150 sticker. Hell, maybe the store in Japan put it on. They did whatever they wanted.

Double edit: Please keep in mind I'm trying to look at everything very objectively because guitars in Japan seemed to follow a different set of rules and didn't abide by American standards we can use for identification. It was kind of like the Wild West.......but in a MIJ guitar craze.

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Re: Possible early 5150 Production

Post by RockStringBender » Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:40 pm

,hey Mangs

does it play?? is it a stage monster for live jamming and general play ability's?

does it have any value besides being a replica 5150?
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Re: Possible early 5150 Production

Post by darrend » Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:48 am

How ironic one just popped up on Reverb.

I take it the OP wanted ammo for his listing, or there's a lurker here that needs to fess up.

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Re: Possible early 5150 Production

Post by shwayman11 » Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:40 pm

darrend wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:48 am How ironic one just popped up on Reverb.

I take it the OP wanted ammo for his listing, or there's a lurker here that needs to fess up.

Just came here to post the same thing

Here's the listing https://reverb.com/item/47339465-esp-vh ... del-by-esp

Probably the best images I've seen of one yet.

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Re: Possible early 5150 Production

Post by sixstring » Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:58 am

OPs has a Gibson pup.
But let's face it, someone buys a Kramer b/c it has a Floyd.

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Re: Possible early 5150 Production

Post by SWANTECH » Tue Nov 30, 2021 1:50 pm

Whatever is written on the gig bag looks interesting. That could hold some information.
Too bad the crappy pic's don't let you see it.
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Re: Possible early 5150 Production

Post by BGSU1989 » Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:34 pm

The one on Reverb isn't mine.
The paint job looks equally as bad though, plus mine doesn't have the "Made by ESP" decal on the back of the neck.
I'll get it assembled after my current project gets done and I locate the proper 80's JBJ pickup.

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Re: Possible early 5150 Production

Post by Kramers » Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:42 pm

If no one can verify or identify one of these as being truly made in house by ESP (and not some guy in a shop, or some guy on the street), what's the whole debate about at this point? scratch_head

This is beginning to sound like that show Ancient Aliens. Who built the pyramids? No one has real proof, so probably aliens. Ironically, I think alienXnation is likely to have made a few of these. :roll

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Re: Possible early 5150 Production

Post by shwayman11 » Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:41 pm

shwayman11 wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 11:40 pm
darrend wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 10:48 am How ironic one just popped up on Reverb.

I take it the OP wanted ammo for his listing, or there's a lurker here that needs to fess up.

Just came here to post the same thing

Here's the listing https://reverb.com/item/47339465-esp-vh ... del-by-esp

Probably the best images I've seen of one yet.
Wow, it sold. Kinda surprised considering the $$$.

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