Possible early 5150 Production

Discussion about the identification of Kramer Guitars and Kramer history
BGSU1989
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Re: Possible early 5150 Production

Post by BGSU1989 » Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:35 pm

I was very skeptical, but these were still hanging in Tokyo guitar shops when I lived there. The finish looked homemade, like it was done on purpose.

You are correct though. In the grand scheme of things it just needs to be used.

It will be resurrected and I'll post pictures.

Kramers
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Re: Possible early 5150 Production

Post by Kramers » Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:34 pm

...so Johnny Roman has your exact neck heel included on his own site? And copyrighted? I thought you bought it from Japan. I guess you could have given him permission to copyright the photo, but what's really going on here? :roll I mean he's included it in a gallery of another guitar that clearly isn't your guitar, not even the neck alone. Why on earth would he use a picture of your neck in his own gallery, guitar #1 (as supposed proof of legitimacy no less)? It's not like you had any proof of legitimacy either. He also never said, HEY, you own on of my necks! 1 of 6! He also pictures your neck heel as 1 of 3 examples of common ESP markings. Is this not getting farcical?

https://alienxnation.com/vintage-1980s- ... t-5150-evh

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/cont ... mer_16.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/zJNkbnn/20211013-161841.jpg


Not attacking you bro, just none of this makes any sensei.

shwayman11
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Re: Possible early 5150 Production

Post by shwayman11 » Tue Nov 02, 2021 7:38 pm

I'd really love to find an ESP VH-250 in an official catalog. Went digging through a couple ESP and Edwards catalogs circa '89-'95 but couldn't find anything.

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PacerMedic
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Re: Possible early 5150 Production

Post by PacerMedic » Thu Nov 04, 2021 8:24 pm

Was gonna grab a EVH frankie replica, but the damn thing jumped 200 bones during the apocalypse. Glad that urge comes and goes, but is mostly gone. I might grab one when people take a break from turning a buck on Ed's style, but I have plenty that play and sound as good if not better anyway. $1,900 is way too much for an MIM strat! :roll
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BGSU1989
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Re: Possible early 5150 Production

Post by BGSU1989 » Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:49 pm

Kramer Maniac.
Johnny had those pictures up before I bought the guitar.
The material on his site is what I was using as a reference when I figured I'd take a shot at the one I bought being legit.
The pics I posted at the start of this thread were only of my guitar.

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KramerJones
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Re: Possible early 5150 Production

Post by KramerJones » Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:26 pm

Going from experience. The markings at the bottom of the neck do look they were written by a Japanese person, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it were made in Japan. (Not that it was necessarily made by Kramer Japan/ESP, mind you). Of this I have little doubt. Even the slight brown lines that emanate perpendicularly to the frets on the fingerboard are exactly the same as on many, many Japanese made guitar maple necks.

Now, having said this, my question is: have you ever seen a Kramer body with a hole drilled right down the middle of the neck pocket area? Neither have I. The body wasn’t made by Kramer Japan/ESP. Yes, I have seen Kramer Japan made 5150s in Japanese guitar shops, we are talking around 1989/1989 and the paint jobs were just crap, but yeah, who am I to judge. At about this time (1990?), I wrote a letter to Kramer USA asking about these guitars, of which they had no idea, however they did give me a rundown on the composition of Eddie’s own 5150.

Sensei? This comes off as a bad joke for a number of reasons. A) a “real” Japanese teacher (referred to as sensei by others, but not by oneself) would refer to oneself as a koushi, simply meaning teacher. B) The honorific title of sensei is not something that one bestows upon or calls themselves. I have met prestigious Japanese university presidents and even they have humbly referred to themselves as simply mere koushi (講師) while talking to them. C) The day that he can write the kanji character for sensei (先生), in the correct stroke order, will be the day that I’ll listen to what he has to say. Until then, he’s Ed Roman 2.0 to me, or エードローマン 2.0 in case anyone is curious to see how it’s written in Japanese.


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SWANTECH
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Re: Possible early 5150 Production

Post by SWANTECH » Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:36 pm

Well. Mr. Jones just spiked the football!
dielaughing
Well done sir.

Just to be clear. It would not surprise me at all if ESP took advantage of the Kramer financial problems and decided to sneak out a model like this.

I have No confidence in anything the Sensei says.

I actually hope some day someone can prove this model existed, but then I might want one.
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darrend
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Re: Possible early 5150 Production

Post by darrend » Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:55 pm

You have to really careful when it comes to ESP Frankenstrat clones in Japan, but they do exist. Navigator (ESP) were usually the culprits of these. They did many "off record" guitars, and to be honest, the Japanese didn't really give a shit when it came to trademarks, etc. When they made this guitar, EVH was heading out and Kramer was collapsing. They copied whatever they wanted and sold them domestically as "store models" and other variants. Sometimes the stores did their own modifications. This was very common with many Japanese brands.

Here is a Navigator VH-230 from a May '83 catalog, already digging their fingers into it.

Image

The guitar the OP has is one made sometime between '89 to the early 1990s, during and post Kramer collapse. Yes, they exist, but there are still many fakes to be aware of. I have a "store model" ESP frankenstrat photo somewhere. I have to find it. It's not in any ESP catalog. Many artist clones weren't (Navigator Brad Gillis, N4, etc.). I'm really not surprised if it's from the ESP Navigator division.

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SWANTECH
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Re: Possible early 5150 Production

Post by SWANTECH » Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:18 pm

THANK YOU!

Now that is some useful solid information, backed up by documentation of a Frankie clone being made. That doesn't surprise me that they would have done these.

I still would like to see some more evidence of the 5150 clones. Just about anything is better than a self proclaimed expert saying a friend told him info. I am not saying they didn't make a copy of the 5150. In fact it is likely they could and would have. Just saying the more info and documentation there is the better for all Kramer, ESP, and EVH enthusiasts.
Joe in Detroit
85 Striker 100ST Blk (1st E. Guitar)
88 Nightswan Sparkle Blue
88 Nigthswan Bolt/Ugly Duckling rescue project
19 Nightswan Polka Dot reissue
86 Classic III Tele Cream
90 Classic II Tele Cream
90 ProAxe Std CR
89 Sustainer Holo
89 Sustainer Blk
86 Focus 1000 Blk (FS)
90's Spector SSD Blackhawk
89 Glide C2 Blk
8? Focus Classic Snbst
87 Monsters of Rock Baretta 2
87 Pacer Cst 1 Relic
91 Baretta 3 Black Cherry
88 EE Pro 1 White/Rainbow
89 Grace C1 Flip Flop Something
01 Music Yo Imperial/Explorer
89 Baretta 2 Flip Flop Red FS

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Takemebackto84
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Re: Possible early 5150 Production

Post by Takemebackto84 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:29 pm

darrend wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:55 pm You have to really careful when it comes to ESP Frankenstrat clones in Japan, but they do exist. Navigator (ESP) were usually the culprits of these. They did many "off record" guitars, and to be honest, the Japanese didn't really give a shit when it came to trademarks, etc. When they made this guitar, EVH was heading out and Kramer was collapsing. They copied whatever they wanted and sold them domestically as "store models" and other variants. Sometimes the stores did their own modifications. This was very common with many Japanese brands.

Here is a Navigator VH-230 from a May '83 catalog, already digging their fingers into it.

Image

The guitar the OP has is one made sometime between '89 to the early 1990s, during and post Kramer collapse. Yes, they exist, but there are still many fakes to be aware of. I have a "store model" ESP frankenstrat photo somewhere. I have to find it. It's not in any ESP catalog. Many artist clones weren't (Navigator Brad Gillis, N4, etc.). I'm really not surprised if it's from the ESP Navigator division.
Brilliant detective work and insight :toast
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